[TPJ06]

I posed this question to Grouper52 on a topic of his (see topic HERE). Thanks to G52 (post #8) and JKL (post #10) for their responses. It was suggested that I post it for general discussion so here it is.

Personally, I have been feeling what I'm calling a "bonsai developmental conflict". A conflict between understanding/following the "rules", and exploring and expressing what I find to be attractive in a tree (my personal aesthetics). I've been a bonsai hobiest for 2yrs. I've found it difficult at times to reconcile what I'm learning from studying my books and my trees (oh lets not forget about nature), putting it into action, but also letting go of the rules and restrictions as well to appeal to myself as a hobbiest . This has led to being caught up in trying to develop trees that others will like and forgetting about what I like.

All that said,I am very interested in a discussion about how one/you/others decide/reconcile when to follow the rules or when to just be a "hobbiest" and enjoy your trees how you like them? Or, if you dont have an "answer" (like me) what are your thoughts?


Ted

[AndyWilson]

My favourite quote on this topic runs something like this.

"To be without rules is deplorable, but to depend on rules entirely is far worse."

Once you have learnt and mastered the rules, then only you will know which ones can be bent or put aside.

Someone who knows the rules only will never create art, they can copy but not create. i think relying on rules too much will lead to a lot of trees that look just like all the others.

To my mind there are 3 types of people who do bonsai.

1. Bonsai keepers - Those that keep them alive. Thats it. there are a lot of people who fit this category, those who buy them because they look nice and then bring it in for a hairut and wire once in a while to someone who knows more.

2. Bonsai growers (technicians)- People who know the very basics and can generally trim a bonsai and keep it in shape. these are people who left to ther own device could create a bonsai, but one that will not exhibit and imagination. Technically sound and often clued up on maintenance, but no creative spark. they can keep shape but not form it, take out things that are wrong but not take a leap to make it better than average.

3. Bonsai Artists - People who can do the first two, but who also can see the finished tree in a piece of raw material. People who dont create endless triangles or brooms and who know what effect a cut or bend today will have in five years time.

Now to become an artist doesnt require inherant knowledge of the rules, and many who fit in this catergory flout them repeatedly. And there is nothing wrong with being a grower, it really depends on what you want to achieve by doing the hobby. A solid base is always good, and some will argue endlessly about leanring things just so you know when not to use them.

My opinion would be that learning the rules rigidly or spending hours watering in a bonsai nursery can only benefit you in the long run. With veneration and respect will come a better understanding.

There are some thoughts for you!

[Accrajucar]

A conflict between understanding/following the "rules", and exploring and expressing what I find to be attractive in a tree (my personal aesthetics).

I'm interested in why you want, or feel like you have to, follow rules?

[lennard]

I'm interested in why you want, or feel like you have to, follow rules?

I think the word "rules" is the wrong word for what is to follow:

When I see one beautiful tree in nature among thousands of others I dont think in terms of rules to decide whether it is a beautiful tree or not.

"Rules" are rather the artistic guidelines when trying to understand why one tree(thing)is beautiful and another not. And not all guidelines have to be represented in one tree to be beautiful.

When I walk into a exhibition hall full of bonsai certain trees with strong focal points grab my attention first- trees with different coloured leaves, trees that have massive trunks, trees with exposed roots and so on.

But it is not those trees that I go back to have another look. The trees that leaves me with a deep admiration are the trees who combine all or most of the principles(rules) of art/beauty. It has movement, balance, depht, rythm and most important they have a definite mood or atmosphere.

I think that most people get frustrated because they cant see the freedom under a rule.

[kite-eating bonsai tree]

... i've also become more aware of this "issue," but don't see it as a "conflict" (yet anyways). i only have three years under my belt (shears? ), and almost all my trees are trained under the supervision of my sensei. i study his finished trees closely in an attempt to bridge the gap (in my limited experience) to what following the "rules" will produce (from what i do know, i would say he's pretty conservative).

i've wanted to do certain things with some trees that he'll discourage me from ... because of 'rules.' i do, however, have several trees guided only by my own hand, and i have never brought these in for his review because i want to see where my own intuition will guide me (sort of like, 'ah, so this is what happens when i make this cut here and let it go'). it's a very long waiting process so far (for me at least), because i only have a couple growing seasons of hands-on experience to relate to.

not sure if i'm making sense here or just rambling! i guess what i'm trying to say it that this is my 'outlet' for setting the rules aside.


kite

[Bonsai Tyro]

You have to know SOME rules whether you call them rules or not. Once you have the knowledge of the rules you then know when they can be broken and still look good.

An example of this it the rule of thirds in photography or painting. You main subject should be placed at or near the junction of the vertical and horizontal lines of your image that divide your image into thirds both vertically and horizontally. Imagine a Tic Tac Toe grid placed over your photo or canvas. You main subject should fall about where the lines intersect in one of four places. Most photo's and painting will look good if this rule is followed but there are times where you can break that rule to good effect. An example is a reflection of an object in water. In a case such as this you should put the water line at the half way point from top to bottom. The object and it's refection, being mirror images, will look best in the middle of the picture although the rule of third can also be applied here.

The same thing applies to bonsai. You must know some rules to be able to break them.

[TPJ06]

I'm interested in why you want, or feel like you have to, follow rules?

I liked the wording Art Theory. I think it is good to know the rules bc they help you to understand the theory or how to make something artificial look good. I agree with BT. In art there are rules to creating perspective. If you dont follow them your picture will not mimic appropriate depth. I believe we need rules like pot depth=trunk width. Could you imagine a tree with a one inch diameter in a pot that is three inches in depth. that would look horrible. i think i might gravitate to more of the rules that deal with perspective than anything else. Though I will break those if I feel like it.

Ted

[Enchantra]

When I style my trees, I keep the so called "rules" in the back of my head as fluid guidelines with various interpretations, and then let the tree show me how it wants to be styled. I could spend months staring at a tree before it tells me how it wants to be styled, but that is how I work it. The so-called rules only come into play on a rare occasion. I do not use any set rules constantly with every tree. Every tree is different, every tree has it's own horticultural sculpture hidden within that must be unleashed through the manipulation of it's growth. That hidden beauty would be totally ruined if I followed any set rules with every tree. Sometimes Rules in design must be broken or bent in order to create a much more appealing, or natural looking tree. Knowing these rules/guidelines allows you to bend or break them more easily when you know how such an action will affect the outcome.

[Fargus64]

I still think Bonsai is an art of choice.

Yes, there are certain things that you do to make your trees look better (the “rules”) but to say that you must create within a parameter is ridiculous. This is an art, similar to that of painting. You have an infinite possibility and the trees are our white canvas. There are still things most painters do to keep their works appealing to the general audience, but for the most part it is a creation of the soul, held within no limits. I think Bonsai should also hold true to this.

If you want to be a professional Bonsai artist and try to make a certain living solely on the art, then yeah, your going to need to make trees others will want to see, but if you are like the greater bulk of us, the only person you really have to please is yourself. Enjoy this hobby and don’t fret over the rules. After while you will obviously want to make trees that are beautiful to the masses (as any craftsman wishes to do within his niche), but in the end, you are the only person you have to please.

Enjoy yourself,

Anthony

[RedheadGnome]

This is a great discussion.

I'm new as far as growing bonsai goes, but I've been a lover of the art for a long time. I'm also an artist and its hard for me to look at things without taking balance, composition, color theory and other artistic elements into consideration and that definitely goes for bonsai.

I've always been more attracted to the bonsais that look more like naturally occurring trees. I can appreciate the more traditional looking trees and all the work and knowledge and experience that goes into them, but often they don't do anything for me. One of my books in particular comes to mind, all the trees are by the same bonsai artist and every tree, despite the species, age, style...every tree looks the same. They all have that rounded off "mushroom top" apex, the exact same branch-length-to-trunk-width ratio, the same zig-zag in the trunk, the same amount of perfectly proportioned nebari showing. While it makes for an attractively grouped collection, it brings out no emotional response in me. In some cases, the effect was so severe that it made some otherwise impressive trees seem quite ugly. Most of these trees were award-winners...but do I want to mimic these trees? Not really. This same author goes on in his book to say that he is very frustrated when he goes to competitions and sees so many trees that he does not consider to be bonsai. Now, I've never been to a competition, but what I think he is saying is that if it doesn't conform to the rules he follows, he does not consider it to be bonsai at all. I think its sad that he is kind of missing the point...

However, I don't believe that "Natural" style means 'anything goes' either. To get that really beautiful natural look, you have to take some artistic elements into consideration. Composition is very important, it doesn't matter how old the tree looks, if its so monsterously off balance that's all you can look at or if it has some random heavy branch sticking out at a weak point in the tree's composition. There's a lot to be learned from the traditional rules. Those ratios are suggested because natural trees tend to grow in similar patterns. The same goes for pruning rules. The rules should be taken as tools, put in your tool box, and then pull them out when needed.

The hardest thing for me as a beginner is looking at my tree and making decisions. To know that if I make this cut, or wire this branch in this design, it will look a certain way several years down the road. I guess that just comes with experience and the help of people that have that experience.

[Will Heath]

There is only one rule, the end result must be visually (artistically) pleasing.




Will

[TPJ06]

There is only one rule, the end result must be visually (artistically) pleasing.




Will

That is too vague for me. What is the operational definition of visually pleasing and to who? If it is to be visually pleasing to others then we need guidelines in order to judge or give feedback regarding our work. If it is for ones self then why do we even have forums or competitions? Why read books on bonsai?

In art there are guidelines. There are things that you generally "need" to do to make your artificial art look natural.

Ted

[Pill Man]

There is only one rule, the end result must be visually (artistically) pleasing.

Will

Hi Will... nice to see that old avatar still hanging around.

"[...] the end result must be visually (artistically) pleasing."

Can I assume you mean to the individual who created the tree? My one rule is that if I like the tree
I've created, then that's pretty much all that matters.

However, for those interested in showing trees formally, or having them judged, then there are
certain rules which would have to be followed.

For me, the "formal" showing of my trees takes place behind my home. I'm pretty certain I have a few trees
that I find visually pleasing, but that others might turn their noses up at.

If you're not into formal displays and having your trees judged, then quite simply, if you like the tree, if you're
happy with it, that's all that matters.

[ficusfreak7]

I think there are two kinds of "rules" in bonsai. The first set being the ones that make sure you keep your trees alive. Such as watering, soil type, etc. But the other set of "rules" are the ones you are talking about, which is styling. Dont think of them as rules, as much as they are guidelines, just there to help you get your tree looking the way you want. Bonsai is an art form, and the deffinition of art is in the eye of the beholder.

[TPJ06]

This is a great discussion.

I'm new as far as growing bonsai goes, but I've been a lover of the art for a long time. I'm also an artist and its hard for me to look at things without taking balance, composition, color theory and other artistic elements into consideration and that definitely goes for bonsai.

I've always been more attracted to the bonsais that look more like naturally occurring trees. I can appreciate the more traditional looking trees and all the work and knowledge and experience that goes into them, but often they don't do anything for me. One of my books in particular comes to mind, all the trees are by the same bonsai artist and every tree, despite the species, age, style...every tree looks the same. They all have that rounded off "mushroom top" apex, the exact same branch-length-to-trunk-width ratio, the same zig-zag in the trunk, the same amount of perfectly proportioned nebari showing. While it makes for an attractively grouped collection, it brings out no emotional response in me. In some cases, the effect was so severe that it made some otherwise impressive trees seem quite ugly. Most of these trees were award-winners...but do I want to mimic these trees? Not really. This same author goes on in his book to say that he is very frustrated when he goes to competitions and sees so many trees that he does not consider to be bonsai. Now, I've never been to a competition, but what I think he is saying is that if it doesn't conform to the rules he follows, he does not consider it to be bonsai at all. I think its sad that he is kind of missing the point...

However, I don't believe that "Natural" style means 'anything goes' either. To get that really beautiful natural look, you have to take some artistic elements into consideration. Composition is very important, it doesn't matter how old the tree looks, if its so monsterously off balance that's all you can look at or if it has some random heavy branch sticking out at a weak point in the tree's composition. There's a lot to be learned from the traditional rules. Those ratios are suggested because natural trees tend to grow in similar patterns. The same goes for pruning rules. The rules should be taken as tools, put in your tool box, and then pull them out when needed.

The hardest thing for me as a beginner is looking at my tree and making decisions. To know that if I make this cut, or wire this branch in this design, it will look a certain way several years down the road. I guess that just comes with experience and the help of people that have that experience.

I am enjoying hearing others views. I like the way you put. I'm gravitating toward the natural style as well bc I dont like the restrictions of following the rules to the T. While I'm sure the book you talk about gives some great information, I would be bored as well. This past weekend, I passed up a great piece of stock going relatively cheaply at a bonsai auction (500yo california juniper in great health) bc it was truly a BONSAI and had nothing natural about it. I feel that if you don't pay attention to the principles of art (not strictly follow), you wont produce a tree that is artistically pleasing.

Ted